Okay, I know I just posted my short story post, but I was having a Facebook conversation at the same time with a very close friend from high school, and it got very heated. You see, I committed an awful Facebook taboo and shared a picture before really looking to see where it was from and what it’s original intent was…
The ensuing conversation went as follows (names have been changed to protect the awesome; if you search us, you will not find us, so don’t bother):
Lovely Lady Love: I think both boys and girls get persecuted for wearing clothing associated with the opposite gender.
Rana: Somewhat, but it’s far worse for boys to dress as girls. Girls where jeans and loose T’s all the time. Mostly with women it depends on their demeanor as well. But people see a guy in a skirt, even a kilt, which is meant for men, and the whispers and jives start flowing all around. For girls, it depends on how they present themselves in guy’s clothes, but for guys it doesn’t matter.
Lovely Lady Love: I think they’re both important and the problems females face shouldn’t be belittled in order to help males.
Rana: I’m not really trying to belittle the problem women face, and I agree they’re both important. I’m simply trying to say that the problem for men is greater in magnitude than for women. It doesn’t make the problem less important, but it means putting the due amount of effort toward each properly. If you put the same amount of effort toward the problem of women belittled for dressing like men as you do men being belittled for dressing like women, it looks like you don’t care as much about the men’s persecution. Men are more likely to be belittled, and are belittled more often for cross-dressing, and so more effort should be put toward preventing it.
Lovely Lady Love: Look at your image. The last line, in bold, says ‘being a girl is degrading’ and you say boys have it worse? Women have it so bad you don’t even care enough to see what that image is really saying. It’s a feminist image! Look at the symbol! Its bad for men to dress like women because ‘men are better than women’. ‘for a woman to dress like a man is okay because boys are ok’ but ‘for a man to dress like a woman is degrading’.
Rana: I’m well aware of what the image says, and it’s intent. The conversation we’re having, though, has diverted from the photo’s original intent. Your first comment said that men and women have an equally hard time dressing as the opposite gender. I’m following the idea of cross-dressing, not the general situation of being a man versus being a woman in society. In the realm of cross-dressing, men have it worse, as in my last comment. In the realm of general societal acceptance, I think it depends where you are. In the community I currently live in, acting the way I do when out and about in society, and dressing the way I do (bummy, don’t care kind of dress), I’m treated equally when interacting with men for agreeing as feminists preach that men and women are equal, and degraded when interacting with women because I’m not being feminine enough, and so not proud of being female. I try to go the feminine route, I’m degraded by men as an object of sex, because half of the women in the world who dress that way act that way, and ignored by women because I am second-rate competition without a chance in the world to look like the ridiculous feminine model we should apparently all aspire to be. There are some men who objectify women, no doubt. But more often than not, it is women objectify each other. Being a woman is degrading to men because women degrade each other as a hobby. It’s okay because we all have boobs, but god forbid a man do it. It’s the same with different races, and it’s wrong. If women want equality (which to me, they already have), then we ought to act like equals among ourselves and treat men the same way we want them to treat us. I do, and it’s works for me.
Rana: Sorry that was really long and kind of ranty… The feminist thing just gets me under my skin… The words in the image I agree with, the image and some of the intent behind it though, not so much.
Rana: Lovely, I responded to what I interpreted as your intent from your original post, again, that men and women are both persecuted for dressing in clothing associated with the opposite gender. Pardon me if I didn’t fully interpret the image properly. I viewed it through a secondary poster, not through the original feminist site, and did not realize it was from a feminist group. I didn’t pay attention to the feminist sign being held in the photo. And I’m sorry, but you don’t have to basically slap me in the face and say I’m talking as an expert. I’m talking from my experience. No one has to take my experiences as their own or a general look on the world. If you have a contradictory view, then fine. But don’t say that I’m not informed enough, and that’s why I feel the way I do. I’m seriously not trying to make this a defensive conversation.
But your second paragraph is going to force me to. You don’t want me to act like I’m an expert? Don’t act like I haven’t experienced being belittled as a woman. I may not have been belittled to the extremes of some women, and there are situations in this regard, very serious situations, where men’s sexism toward women is all there is to blame. I do not deny this in any way. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t stick up for myself as a woman against men with sexist ideals. I take my role as a woman and stand up for myself on a daily basis. I have had a man try to molest me and given him a broken nose. I have been belittled for dressing in boy’s clothes since I was in 4th grade. I’m not going to say I have experienced it all, I certainly haven’t. There are those with much bigger problems in this area than me. But I’m not stupid, and I’m not inexperienced. I know the problem, and I know how to deal with it. I know many women who do know how to deal with respectfully and properly. I also know women who pull the feminist card and scream every time a man makes eye contact, because he must have been looking up her 2 inch skirt. Some women work for their equality on a daily basis. Some think they deserve equality without acting as an equal. Some men are sexist monsters, and some are genuine kind people who are put down because they don’t have boobs. It goes all different ways. I’m a woman and I’m proud of it, and I work to earn my individual equality in the eyes of those around me day by day. That’s it.
Lovely Lady Love: So because you’re not trying to make this a defensive conversation, you don’t want me contradict you? Is that it?
Lovely Lady Love: I’m not slapping you in the face, I’m telling you what I think.
It’s disappointing that you look at this feminist image, posted by a feminist facebook group, and use it for the specific subject of cross dressing so you can feel bad for men, and dismiss the original intent of it as ‘not what you were talking about’. This image is completely and utterly focused on the REASON why men are looked down upon for dressing like women. It’s because screwed up people believe ‘men should be ashamed to even be associated with the likes of pathetic, lowly women’. That’s the whole point.
If this were an equal world, if women were thought of as equal to men, then WHY do men get persecuted for trying to dress in our clothes?
Lovely Lady Love: I did originally say, ‘I think both boys and girls get persecuted for wearing clothing associated with the opposite gender.’ and I said it that way because I wanted to keep men and women at an equal level (as I want us to be treated) and not belittle either of their problems. Cross dressers in general struggle with persecution.
But when you responded saying that men have it worse, it was a point that was just so opposite of the original image that I had to say something about that. I’m sorry if my original message was confusing.
Rana: That’s okay. I also responded that way because the original message that I found with this image was in the same light, focusing more on the idea of cross-dressing, so it was very prominent in my mind when you commented. My bad.
Lovely Lady Love: Alrighty NP :>
This is why we are still friends. That was a very heated argument, and I am just as adamant against the modern concept of feminism as she is for it. And yet we just let it roll off our backs, gave each other our smiles, and went about our business. Do you have friends that awesome? And a final note, because I still find it adorable and awesome.